Curse

The Meth · Feb 26, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Here's my attempt to make a viable build:
[skill]Enraged Smash[/skill][skill]Hammer Bash[/skill][skill]Pulverizing Smash[/skill][skill]Protector's Strike[/skill][skill]Renewing Smash[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill][skill]Enraging Charge[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill]

From the get-go you have a strong spike with knockdown + deep wound + strong finisher along with the pressure of enraged. As soon as you unleash said spike you can recharge both the spike and enraged with renewing smash -> enraging charge. Might not win me the coveted 'l337est build of the year' award, but its decent.

It doesn't beat out dragon slash + SY + Brawling Headbutt, but then using PvE skills in the first place is really just cheating.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 26, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

[skill]Hammer Bash[/skill][skill]Pulverizing Smash[/skill]

/fail.
Bash loses all adrenaline, Pulv requires adrenaline; and I'd rather not have to rely on a team mate for a KD.

Tyla · Feb 26, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Enraged Smash is bad.
DragonSlash is better for several situations.
It can insta-power "SY!", instacharge your IAS (if using Flail) and hits once every 1 second (while under Frenzy/Flail).
Enraged Smash offers nothing of the like, and requires slots to be used for it's max power.

The Meth · Feb 26, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

/fail.
Bash loses all adrenaline, Pulv requires adrenaline; and I'd rather not have to rely on a team mate for a KD.

lol, I guess I deserve such humiliation for theorycrafting a build in the morning...

It does still work though if you use hammer bash -> enraging + protectors -> pulverizing. Or just replace with Brawling Headbutt, though its a pve skill.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 26, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

lol, I guess I deserve such humiliation for theorycrafting a build in the morning...

It does still work though if you use hammer bash -> enraging + protectors -> pulverizing. Or just replace with Brawling Headbutt, though its a pve skill.

I've found [skill=text]counter blow[/skill] to be pretty good on an Enraged Smash guy - it's a puny 4 adr, and KDing with it doesn't kill your adrenaline (and thusly, your DPS). It's a pretty reliable KD too - even monks wand between spells in PvE, and you can use it with Pulverising.

The Meth · Feb 27, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Nice catch, I notice too that enemies like to wand a lot. Assuming you could bear the loss of missing a few spikes you could get a combo that only requires 4 adren going, which would let you drop enraging charge for rush, mending touch , enduring finale or something else, since you don't need the huge adren buff.

draxynnic · Feb 27, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coolquest

I know about the slower rate of attack for hammers, and
I've probably been playing this game longer than you (2.3 years or so give or take), I just don't play GW quite as much as I used to, so I tend to forget some things

. That and I didn't go very far into the depths of PVP, I enjoy the occasional AB match but for me its mostly exploring, so I understand why some of you might think I'm inexperienced.

Given that you didn't know how armour worked, I thought it was worth making sure this wasn't somewhere else where you were unaware of just how the mechanics worked.

Also, no, 2.3 years isn't enough to have been playing the game longer than I have.

Coolquest · Feb 27, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Given that you didn't know how armour worked, I thought it was worth making sure this wasn't somewhere else where you were unaware of just how the mechanics worked.

Also, no, 2.3 years isn't enough to have been playing the game longer than I have.

I got the general idea of how armor sets worked, but I wasn't sure how beneficial the armor bonuses from skills were.

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 27, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

It's sad to see someone attempting to make a shoddy elite look new getting slapped around, BUT it's nice to see people actually trying to break the KD Cookie Cutter ideal...

Trying to match DS comes down to reliance in a heated fight from an objective perspective. Pros to cons?

Enraging Smash
pros:No weaknesses when blocked. Does NOT need adrenal engine to get going. Can bring Occasional skills that need not be spammed to work.
cons: shuts off 50%+ of your skill bar to be used at full force. Slower atk speed hurts DPS

Dragon Slash
pros: built-in adrenaline monster engine. High dps, shield protected. High atk speed. Feeds other high adrenaline skills extremely well.
cons: when blocked, you're done. Without FGJ, fails at pretty much all else. Isn't nearly as effective with other adrenaline engines, like Dark Fury or Mark of Fury.

In my opinion, if done smartly [and with a non FGJ adrenal engine], I'd lean on Enraging Smash.

It's different, does a TON of damage and can work even under bad circumstances. I don't see people spamming Counter Blow or Watch Yourself or Lion's Comfort every chance they get so I think it'd work.

I suppose a hammer attack build for ES would look like:

Enraging Smash, Counter Blow, Pulverising Blow, Flail, Lion's Comfort, Watch Yourself, Mark of Fury, Res Signet

A majority of those skills need less than 3 hits with MoF and if you ran
16 hammer, 9 tactics, 8-9 strength, X curses, you'd be fine. [you can switch str for tactics if you change out watch yourself with something str based. More than 7 seconds of Flail isn't needed in my opinion]

Would probably work at it's maximum output with a boss that has high hp and defense to deal with.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 27, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Enraging Smash
pros:No weaknesses when blocked. Does NOT need adrenal engine to get going. Can bring Occasional skills that need not be spammed to work.
cons: shuts off 50%+ of your skill bar to be used at full force. Slower atk speed hurts DPS

You forgot the biggest one - no "SY!" spam. Forgoing constant 85% damage reduction to the rest of the party deserves a mention.

Quote:

Dragon Slash
pros: built-in adrenaline monster engine. High dps, shield protected. High atk speed. Feeds other high adrenaline skills extremely well.
cons: when blocked, you're done. Without FGJ, fails at pretty much all else. Isn't nearly as effective with other adrenaline engines, like Dark Fury or Mark of Fury.

Plain wrong. DS --> Brawling --> Steelfang for when FGJ! is down, constant full adrenaline (and perma knocklock). Personally, I don't even bother with FGJ! on my own PvE DSlasher. I like Disarm and DPSig too much to drop them

Cute though it is, when we add PvE skills into the mix, Enraged Smash simply cannot compare in terms of overall power, utility and usefulness to DSlash.

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 27, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

You forgot the biggest one - no "SY!" spam. Forgoing constant 85% damage reduction to the rest of the party deserves a mention.

Plain wrong. DS --> Brawling --> Steelfang for when FGJ! is down, constant full adrenaline (and perma knocklock). Personally, I don't even bother with FGJ! on my own PvE DSlasher. I like Disarm and DPSig too much to drop them

Cute though it is, when we add PvE skills into the mix, Enraged Smash simply cannot compare in terms of overall power, utility and usefulness to DSlash.

Wait a second, can you do brawling headbutt if DS is blocked? I thought it would be undoable after you use DS since everything loses a hit of Adrenaline[unless you speak of waiting to land a 25% normal hit, which means you just wait... I guess. Oh yeah, since it's a touch attack, you can't do steelfang right? Or am I reading the wiki description wrong?]

I do however understand that it'd work due to the 5a. loop but only under the condition that it does not get blocked. Hell, why bring FGJ then correct? as you say.

Not bring SY! is my option cause, I don't have that, I use Watch Yourself!! instead. I don't have the time to get SY! either sadly...

Working with what I got is all I can say...

Stormlord Alex · Feb 27, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Wait a second, can you do brawling headbutt if DS is blocked? I thought it would be undoable after you use DS since everything loses a hit of Adrenaline[unless you speak of waiting to land a 25% normal hit, which means you just wait... I guess. Oh yeah, since it's a touch attack, you can't do steelfang right? Or am I reading the wiki description wrong?]

I can think of all of.... one place in the whole of PvE where I ever notice serious blocking, and that's the Kournan archer mobs in Consulate Docks mission.
And they explode because of SS, so they don't really matter.

draxynnic · Feb 27, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Kournan archers to be found, well, throughout Kourna? (Silly as they are with Infuriating Heat?) Big Centaur mobs with overlapping Protector's Defense in the Far North Shiverpeaks, especially in Defend the Eye (okay, the last tend to explode from area damage, but they're there).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Wait a second, can you do brawling headbutt if DS is blocked? I thought it would be undoable after you use DS since everything loses a hit of Adrenaline[unless you speak of waiting to land a 25% normal hit, which means you just wait... I guess. Oh yeah, since it's a touch attack, you can't do steelfang right? Or am I reading the wiki description wrong?]

I do however understand that it'd work due to the 5a. loop but only under the condition that it does not get blocked. Hell, why bring FGJ then correct? as you say.

Not bring SY! is my option cause, I don't have that, I use Watch Yourself!! instead. I don't have the time to get SY! either sadly...

Working with what I got is all I can say...

If you have a Stonefist Insignia, you have time to take two swings at an enemy before they can get up - the second of which can be Steelfang. An attack speed boost can allow you to get the whole chain in and be starting to use Brawling Headbutt again before they get up - which is how it leads to a knockdown loop.

Using FGJ! simplifies the process in two ways - with Charging Strike you can start right off the bat, and for the 20 seconds it lasts you don't need the attack speed boost or Steelfang - just keep cycling between Brawling Headbutt and Dragon Slash will keep them knockdown-locked as long as FGJ! lasts. (I was considering doing my earlier runs on the master of Damage with Brawling Headbutt, but decided that would vary too much with Deldrimnor reputation. Speaking of which... Savio, the point I was making with the 'not statistically important' part was that the random number variation was more important than the starting skill.)

It's actually somewhat of a shame, because DS and ES seem to be intended to be similar skills working in different ways to reward a bar loaded with adrenaline skills (you can even kinda see this in their skill icon - the Enraged Smash icon is a hammer superimposed on what could be a dragon's head, very similar in concept to the icon for Dragon Slash). Without FGJ! or Brawling Headbutt/Steelfang synergies, Dragon Slash is still a viable build - load up with adrenal attack, chew through them all as they charge, and then hit DS to recharge or mostly recharge them, and you can get a situation when half or more of your swings are some sort of adrenal attack skill. Heck, I even built a forerunner to the current build using Whirlwind to set up for Steelfang that, as long as the energy lasted and the enemy cooperated, could be getting an adrenal skill of every swing (using other adrenal attacks such as Galrath and Silverwing to cover the recharge time for Whirlwind).

Still, the big difference at the moment seems to be that Dragon Slash synergises much better with other skills, especially broken PvE skills like Brawling Headbutt and Save Yourselves!, which is why it's favoured over its cousin.

The Meth · Feb 28, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The big difference at the moment seems to be that Dragon Slash synergises much better with other skills, especially broken PvE skills like Brawling Headbutt and Save Yourselves!, which is why it's favoured over its cousin.

That about sums up everything. Enraged smash is pretty good, but nothing short of dev hacks beats dragon slash + pve skills.

Coolquest · Feb 28, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Yeah, I didn't really think enraged smash would be on the same level as Dragonslash. I just noticed how much damage you did and thought it'd be fun to discuss it ^_^

Crom The Pale · Feb 28, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I gave this a shot and found the dmg was just not significant enough, given the slow speed of the hammer even with PvE skills to bost the dmg and add an extra knockdown.

Stick to hammers for knockdowns and the axe/sword for dmg, at least thats my 2cents.

draxynnic · Feb 28, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

That about sums up everything. Enraged smash is pretty good, but nothing short of dev hacks beats dragon slash + pve skills.

Indeed. If this had started being discussed before PvE skills were all over the place disrupting whatever fragile balance there had been beforehand, however, it might have seen some play. If it wasn't a hammer elite and therefor held back by the general anti-hammer bias.

(Thought experiment: What if it was "Enraged Chop" - an axe elite - instead? With two charged skills - Lion's Comfort and Disrupting Chop, for instance, both skills you don't necessarily want to use as soon as they charge - it matches Whirling Axe without the downside. With 3 - say Agonising Chop, since as an axe warrior, inflicting Deep Wound is your job - it matches Cleave for damage and can be used twice as often. If someone else does the Deep Wound for you and you can keep Dismember in reserve, than it's like you get to do Executioner's every two swings! I'd be willing to bet that something like that would have become a popular PvP build and/or a popular PvE build before PvE skills among Warrior players that like to have some interrupts. Unfortunately, hammers rely on knockdowns for interrupts, and all the non-elite adrenaline knockdowns drain it all instead of just their own...)

Beomagi · Feb 29, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I use ES and think it's a decent skill.
To prevent the "shutoff" I simply use 5 adrenal skills or more, and actually USE them. I don't spam them, but even if I did, I don't have to worry about 1 or 2 of them recharging. NOR do I mope about half the bar being gone. Dragon slash hits it's limit in the short game. Coming across small groups of mobs on the way to the destination. You're simply not adding your best damage to the party. Assuming you're 20 seconds into the fight, you lose most your damage again. I actually somewhat prefer running with echo + FGJ (40/45s 2x adr) + high damage/adr attacks. After 4 special attacks or so, I'd get a couple normal hits in and be ready to pummel with adrenal attacks again.

Enraging smash
Flail, rush, counter blow, whirlwind attack, lion's comfort.

yes, I ignore deepwound and kd. I rely on my heros to spread deepwound.

As with any build based around an elite adrenal skill, you're shutdown with adrenaline denial. It's definitely faster to kill with than my dragon slash warrior. The +40 is lessened by the fast that i'm waiting for 2 hammer swings, but protector's strike does down cut down time, there's flail to help, and the hammer itself is a fair blow.

Given the newer skills available, I'll probably be going for kd anyway. pulverizing smash is pretty low on adr. Have left eotn pretty much alone so far.

71.229 · Feb 29, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

[card]Earth Shaker[/card][card]Whirlwind Attack[/card][card]Crude Swing[/card][card]"Save Yourselves!"[/card]

/twelve characters

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Oh well, after testing it by buying some of the hammer skills [gah, mah plat] and simply using a max hammer from a collector...

The old roles are pretty much set in stone:

Axe = spike Eviscerate *
Sword = DPS dragon slash*
Hammer = KD Lock Devastating*

It's a shame really that nobody is willing to accept a DPS hammer attempt simply because it's too pathetically weak. Heck, I'm wrong on that account, ah well...

Good thing I love mah axe...